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| People from other countries; foreigners, immigrants.. | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 10 2015, 03:25 PM (1,252 Views) | |
| Neshi | Apr 10 2015, 03:25 PM Post #1 |
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☀ Lana the adventurer☀
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People from other countries, often called "foreigners", "immigrants".. What do you think about them? What's your experience? What's your country attitude? [I've just wanted to ask for a long time about it.. and finally the discussion in this topic motivated me -> [link]] Edited by Neshi, Apr 10 2015, 08:33 PM.
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| cipher | Apr 10 2015, 03:35 PM Post #2 |
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Fancy Chicken
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Among the young people in America I think we do a great job to be welcoming. It's exciting to meet someone who grew up in a different culture, and learn what that is like. We love trying foods from all over the world. Also in general Americans love non-American accents, a lot of us find them charming/hot lol. Among the older generation I think it's more common to be prejudiced towards immigrants. There was a lot of tension towards Mexicans a while back, and now it seems the focus has shifted to Middle Eastern immigrants or Muslims in general. Like seriously it wasn't uncommon to hear that the current president shouldn't be in office because he was secretly Muslim. Wtf?? |
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| Sagie | Apr 10 2015, 03:37 PM Post #3 |
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crotchety
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I think this is a really hard topic to talk about sometimes...trying to find the right words. Philosophically, and as a person, humans are humans. I really do feel that way and when I meet someone from somewhere else I get excited, because they have really different experiences and I want to know more about them. On an individual basis, I love and welcome people who come here from other lands, whether they're visiting or just want to make a new life. I guess...when I get frustrated is when they, in large groups, show up and cause some sort of negative impact that's tangible to me. And I'm...trying to say this as nicely as possible. But my example is: my church has a really, really big population of Mexican immigrants. I'd say like 70% of the church is of that heritage, and a big number of them are immigrants, maybe not even legal. I think it's great they're here and we should welcome them and support one another, because it's very hard to be human in a strange land. Where I get annoyed is...well, and our church perpetuates this, but our church is basically segregated. Not on purpose, but there's a "hispanic" Mass and an "English" Mass. There's tons of church activities related to their culture, and then a few others for everyone else, and no one goes to the activities of the other group. And well...the hispanic population in our church doesn't really always respect the place. They leave a lot of trash everywhere and don't always clean up after themselves, or they show up to have events when our choir has booked the room for a practice. Those are just a few examples, and it's all part of one bigger example, but it's something I've experienced elsewhere too. We have a pretty big Vietnamese and a somewhat smaller Lebanese population too. When you meet these people one and one, they are wonderful and interesting and it's great that they're here. But, for whatever reason (and likely reasons are: things are scary, you want to stick to familiar things, we probably ostracize them as a society, etc), they tend to stick together in tight clumps and then not follow the rules of whatever place they're in or whatever community they are a part of. Happened a lot at college, happened a lot in my previous church, at the gym I went to...and it results in people developing a very negative stereotype. I think a lot of it could be solved with better communication, but it's easier to develop a stereotype than to talk about it. And writing this helped me think through it, actually, because before I was trying really hard not to be annoyed with certain groups but now I'm trying to think how better we can reach out to them. actually one of the reasons I'm leaving choir (there are many) are that the conductor regularly makes derogatory remarks toward the hispanic groups at the cathedral. It's not deserved and doesn't help. so, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think Americans are great one-on-one, but terrible with stereotyping groups. My political thoughts are that we HAVE to make immigration easier. I don't blame people coming here from Mexico for doing so illegally at all, and becoming a citizen here is super difficult, so it's no wonder. We need to offer help to people who need it and make the process easier. It only benefits everyone involved. Edited by Sagie, Apr 10 2015, 03:38 PM.
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| Miva | Apr 10 2015, 03:52 PM Post #4 |
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I want to say more on this, but I can't overstate how stressed I am at the moment so I think it's not a good idea to get myself worked up in debate. I did just want to say that I know I painted the UK in a bad light back in the how was your day topic, but we really aren't all like that. It's mostly the older generation and people living in rural areas. It only seems like such a big thing at the moment because of the media frenzy and some political movements at the moment. I believe that most people here are tolerant and welcoming of immigrants and I don't think you should be put off about coming here to live and work, if that's something you think you'd like to do. The UK is a really multicultural society with a lot of history of different peoples moving here, I think its one of the things that makes us great. |
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| Ashtoro | Apr 10 2015, 04:22 PM Post #5 |
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Paladin of Hallowed Light
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Canada is supposed to be all about the cultural mosaic, but I don't know how true it is. In Vancouver, where I was born and lived for the first twelve years, just under half of the population are white. Over a quarter are Chinese. As kid it always felt like more than half the class was Chinese. Then I moved here, where it's like 99% white people. It's actually around 82% but I don't know where these minorities are hiding outside of Chinatown since I'll maybe see one that doesn't look like a tourist per month. Not that I get out much. So Vancouver is super moasic, this city is not so much. |
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| Mia | Apr 10 2015, 04:39 PM Post #6 |
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Firefly
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Considering that I live in Texas and it is bordered to Mexico, I have encountered many non-hispanic Americans saying racist remarks toward hispanics. Majority of them crossing the border are usually illegal immigrants. I understand many of them want to be in the US to have a better life but some things become ridiculous. Last summer, I was sort of keeping track with the news about children crossing the border without their parents or guardian. I questioned about the safety of the kids and then they would get deported back to their home country. For those that gets departed, it is terrible because they may have family members who is legally a US citizen and they want to reunite with them. However, I do share my sympathies with these hispanics. Unfortunately, there are some Americans who think that immigrants came to the US to steal the welfare and take away many job opportunities from them. The immigrants from a century ago are different from today and there are myths out there that people should know. You can click here to learn some of these myths if you are curious. Most of the hispanics I've seen accepted many janitorial/custodian jobs that many americans wouldn't do. America is described as a melting pot and generally the new generation is open to meeting people from different cultures. It is nice to live in an area that is diverse instead of living in a place that is mono-ethnic. |
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| cipher | Apr 10 2015, 04:52 PM Post #7 |
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Fancy Chicken
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Sagie's experiences ring true to me as well, and there is a difference between foreigners that want to become a contributing and active member of the new society they are joining, and those that simply feel that they don't belong there but just "squatting" in a foreign land. The latter group doesn't have a vested interest in the wellbeing of their host country, and I think that is where a lot of negative behavior comes from. You can see this kind of behavior in many groups of disenfranchised folks such as unemployed young men, the homeless, nomadic people, etc. They might not see the incentive in contributing to, improving, or integrating into a society that they feel isolated from. |
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| Diem | Apr 10 2015, 05:35 PM Post #8 |
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Wizzard
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When it comes down to it, I believe that every human deserves the exact same rights so if I am entitled to live in and benefit from a prosperous western society, then so is everyone else. None of this crap about immigrants to England not getting the same welfare rights as people born here, what right has anyone to deny those privileges to some and give them to others based purely on where they were born? |
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| Sagie | Apr 10 2015, 05:38 PM Post #9 |
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crotchety
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I don't know how things are in the UK, but I think one of the main concerns people have here about immigrants who aren't citizens is that they aren't paying taxes, but are still benefiting from government programs that operate from tax money. I think that's a valid concern, and one that needs to be addressed by better organization and easier citizenship processes, not by just deporting everyone. |
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| RedliwLedah | Apr 10 2015, 07:31 PM Post #10 |
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High Arch-Duke of Video Games
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The vast majority of the people in my apartment complex are Indian, and there's a large population of them in any of the Milwauke areas I go to. I avoid lake side, where you get the shady people of all backgrounds. I have had no positive experiences with them, but also nothing but minor negative ones. My neighbors cannot park well and there's often Tang cans laying around. I was once confronted with a gang that happened to have black people in them, and all the hooligans at my highschool were, or hung out with, hispanics. *Shrug* |
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| Diego, the mentor | Apr 10 2015, 07:36 PM Post #11 |
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Brain wave reader
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Yup, that sounds like Mexico I believe that we donīt even acknowledge immigrants in here, there are a few chinese but I rarely see them in the streets, thereīs also the menonitas who are the only white people in here (they are some kind of amish culture, so they donīt mix with our mixed race). In this particular part of Mexico we donīt get people from other races; but most of my family from my motherīs side have emigrated to US, they couldnīt get back to my grandmothers funeral and I miss a few of my cousins |
| Clara, be my pal... tell me. Am I a good man? | |
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| Neshi | Apr 10 2015, 09:55 PM Post #12 |
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☀ Lana the adventurer☀
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Here also most of young and middle age people are open to new cultures and people, it was like this in in the past and now. We have many foreign students because our education level is very high and many people from all over the world want to study here -> [link] Sometime though, I hear people who speak foolishness to stir up troubles and hate. Usually they are people behind the times or just hooligans.
That's right, like everywhere there are people who really want to start new life and work hard on it all the time and there're also some who just want to slack off. We cannot paint everybody with the same brush. Every human is a different story.
Yeah, why world can't work like this now... Edited by Neshi, Apr 10 2015, 09:57 PM.
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| Silva | Apr 10 2015, 11:42 PM Post #13 |
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Fiercer than the Dark
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You've come and said exactly what was initially on my mind. ____________ This is a great chance to discuss why it is that groups of youths whose recent generations managed to get into a country, whatever their reason for wanting to be part of it, may actually become part of criminal groups later on in life. There's socio-economic reasons for this, and it's pretty much the same reason why white youths can also become criminals. The statistical tendency is just stronger because if your parents moved into a country with nothing (fleeing war, poverty or other dangers, or just trying to restart), then you will be starting with less wealth than an educated current citizen. Criminality is often strongly associated with low wealth, because not being able to eat makes people desperate, of course. It's unfair to pin it on race, or even ethnic group, purely because the only reason criminal gangs etc group together is because they relate to each other as people, probably because of a similar background of hardship and disenfranchisement with Police and other government entities, which their first experiences of may be through arrest or segregation from "legitimate" citizens. Borders are nothing but economic lines used to create division and their initial function - keeping nations defined and divided, and thereby safe from military conquest - should be considered less relevant as humanity starts to trade and work together more and more on a global level. Borders are nothing but fear and hatred dividing humans and keeping us back from true progress. Humans are humans, no matter where we are, and I firmly believe that there is no superior race, no superior nation, and no superior culture. Superiority is a construct defined by perspectives related to personal goals and the ability to meet them, and truth is a construct that transcends any perspective, therefore superiority has no logical basis as a fact. Human beings are, as I see it, waking up from a dream world in which each tribe is more like a different species or animal entirely, rather than other human beings - but we will inevitably be more effective together than apart. Humans have been using terms that define certain groups as "other" - "foreigners", "immigrants", "economic migrants", "squatters", "tourists" (when used derogatorily) and the like to define people as not equal to us on a human level. These labels are excuses for disenfranchising, segregating, and separating those people, categorising them away from ourselves, keeping ourselves safe in our beds away from true awakening by really learning from other cultures. They are nothing but indicators of fear, and have no function other than maintaining social division. They create no social good in the long term, because from division and categorisation, comes conflict when groups inevitably must communicate with one another out of necessity (in courts of law, in politics, in public meetings and so on), and all these terms come to light as insults that only increase tension. There is no mutual benefit or trade that can occur in such a climate of fear and loathing. Of course, I'm sure we can all agree that there is absolutely no basis for dehumanising ANYBODY. Ethnic or national group has nothing to do with behaviour engaged in by any group of individuals. More personally, I'd like to point to Serj Tankian's song "Borders Are" on this topic. In Australia, our government has been inhumanely dealing with refugees over successive governments. It's seen as a big problem by most international rights groups - even the UN has stated its concerns. Our current government under Tony Abbott, unfortunately, won its election partly from wooing the racist vote with the slogan "stop the boats". It's a human rights disaster and something I'm very passionate about. Children are even kept in detention centres run by our government. These are the very same detention centres which hold people who end up committing suicide over what they recently experienced in their home country and in their state of limbo between nations. I think that these people should be processed in full freedom of movement as asylum seekers, and given full citizen rights if the situation that caused them to come - or another situation which endangers them - is continuing. There is no human gain from locking people up and refusing them entry if they are "caught" trying to enter our "precious" borders. It will not stop people from fleeing countries in which they and their families are already in danger. First world nations in my view have a moral responsibility on the world stage, to allow other people who are from suffering nations to enter their economy and give them some means to contribute as part of society, not languish in a prison cell. People who want to leave their nation in a time of war and seek new beginnings are exactly the kind of go-getters who deserve safety and the ability to reach their true potential in a nation with facilities for education and respect for human rights. It's so hypocritical that a nation like Australia, founded and federated mostly by people who settled and stole land from its original inhabitants, can turn around and then say, "stay out of our country". It never was "our" country. Historically speaking, our European settler forefathers just planted a nice big fugly British flag in it and ignored the native people's ownership of their land. By that logic, we should be taking in anyone who isn't already a major criminal who wants to join, as a matter of consistency. The same could (and, I feel, should) be said for a certain other nation represented in this thread. |
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| Neshi | Apr 11 2015, 01:51 PM Post #14 |
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☀ Lana the adventurer☀
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I really like to read your posts Silva. You usually say things I'd want to say in more detailed and analized way. Thank you for being here with us! : )
Everybody should have access to the same basic rights and no one should be treated better then another for no reason. In the past times, borders were more opened and people migrated without the whole mess and there were no problems in adaptation.
That's what our times have caused. We live in the century of massive technology and knowledge development but paradoxically we become more introverted and isolated from other nations. Racism is not founded on rational thought, but on fear.
That's how it works. And as Cipher-san mentioned, they're people who want to change their life for the better and they're people who just have no goal in life but to make troubles. And it has nothing to do with skin color or ethnicity-based conditions.
It's fear that blinded people to others. There're acts of terror and problems that are connect only with "foreigners" and people forget about native murderers and muggers. The real problem lies somewhere else, not in "too much opened borders". Edited by Neshi, Apr 11 2015, 01:55 PM.
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| Artisan | Apr 11 2015, 04:35 PM Post #15 |
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Immigrants are peachy in my book. In fact, the current iteration of my country was founded by immigrants through shady yet effective methods that wouldn't be allowed today. At least not without a lot of effort. My experience has been mostly positive though I'm not certain how many first generation immigrants I've come across. A person born in my country is counted as a citizen regardless of their background. Overall my country handles acceptance of immigrants well. They don't call America the melting pot for nothing. That being said, there are many groups and individuals with vastly different views, both good and bad. The bad type have evolved over time becoming more passive aggressive to conceal their intentions, but the good outnumber them. Silva; Criminal groups often offer a sense of unity and self-importance which can be tempting to someone who is starting a new life in a place with no familiar people except for their family, assuming they have one with them. It can also be a malignant way to survive for those having a tough time. Like it or not borders are one of the things holding our artificial "world order" together, such as it is. The ail of property ownership comes with the insurance of more reliable stability for this complicated system. Removing them now, with the technology we've created to keep them in check still intact, would lead to a chaotic struggle for a new world order that would probably take longer to make than the current one took to develop. Let's not forget that these borders were created by a border-less people countless years in the past. History could end up repeating itself, especially with all of the various groups and cultures we have in existence today. |
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