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A Proposal for a New Competition Thing
Topic Started: May 19 2018, 05:26 AM (191 Views)
Robert Joe
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To note: This was planned to be posted yesterday, which was when all the "Tapatalk" stuff came to light, so the timing literally could not have been worse. Obviously that is the more pressing issue right now, but this should still be taken into account for the future.




Well, it certainly has been a while since we have done anything related to competitions. Staff inactivity and just general disinterest have been quite a bad combination. It is probably time to change that.

I know that I personally have been on record often saying stuff akin to "I have no ideas on what to do" quite a few times. And that is, or was, entirely true. But, for once in my life, I have actually had what I am hoping is a decent idea. Over the course of the past few weeks I have been laying out the groundwork of a new system for competitions, and I would like to present it here for everyone's suggestions and criticism.

This new competition system would be very straightforward compared to the old one. If you asked me, the most significant flaw with the Clan Competitions lies in the first word of that name. You have four factions (Five counting Clanless) that have to compete with each other. Even when we were more active back then, this was not mathematically sound with the small number of members that we have.

There simply are not enough people on the forums to sustain four different factions. And this is a problem that I think is present with most of the GS boards. Anyone who joins the two non-dominant Clans is out of luck. Anything they work on is going to be a waste of time because they will have no chance of getting anywhere due to their lack of team-mates.

So, the idea was to essentially keep Clans as they are right this moment. Groups that affect the color of your profile, and allow you to access Clan-specific boards. Clans would have no connection to competitive elements at all.

Instead of having the four groups competing, there would only be two. "Team Isaac", and "Team Felix", or something to that nature. Each team would have a total point score that submissions could add to. These points would add to a team's progress bar, which would have a set point goal. Reaching this goal would constitute a victory, and a commencement of a new "Season".

Making submission for a team would be extremely simple. You literally just state which team you want your points to go towards. That is it. No sign-ups or anything complicated like that.

At certain milestones of point counts along the bar, certain events could be triggered. For example, you could have an event that activates once a team reaches 10 points or something. These events would probably be listed on the progress bar, but secret goals could also be present as well. But, either way, these would be the actual "Competition" parts of the competition.

Events such as these would be displayed on a progress bar like this shitty mock-up I just made:

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... And yes, you could theoretically submit something for both teams by constantly switching between the two to try to keep them exactly even. Or all collaborate to only put stuff towards one of them and completely ignore the other. That would still be organic activity as opposed to contrived forced stuff, and we could re-work it in the next season if people wanted to do something different like that.

Also, it is known that there are definitely people here, mainly in Mars but to a lesser extent in Venus, that would be upset at the lack of "Clan pride" in such a competition like this. But, the idea is that you would still essentially be competing as a team in all but name. The only difference would be that other people who are not in one of the big two Clans could also productively compete as well without their contributions effectively being wasted.

But, if that is not enough Clan pride for you, we have brought up the idea of at the end of a "Season" announcing which clan contributed to the winning team the most. So, if it really is that big of a deal to everyone, we can still have the "Mars Clan Forever" or "Venus Rocks" stuff if people want it.

In addition to this, the idea of using the existing character badge system to facilitate some kind of tie-in with this new competitive thing has been brought up. Something akin to being able to sign up for a team-themed character badge replacement that tracks your contributions to said team. And, of course, only those who sign-up would have the character badge changed so existing ones would be untouched. I personally am not a fan of this idea too much simply because of the dreaded "Sign up" part which I consider to be too much paperwork (Even if signing up would not be required to participate). But, I wanted to throw the idea out there in case you guys have a different opinion.

We have a good vision on how this is going to work, and honestly if you guys end up seeing this as a decent idea we are quite excited to start working on it and actually do something for the forums for once. Well... A good vision on everything except for one very troublesome thing. Voting on submission-based competitions. This is something that I have really been trying to think about, and honestly, I have no idea how we could overhaul it to be less complicated and confusing.

This is the one kink in this plan, and we would really appreciate suggestions for it. Currently, all that has been brought up is to either use a voting system like the old one (Retaining most of its flaws), or just try to find some way to side-step voting entirely (Which could unfairly reward spammy submissions).




TL;DR:
We are proposing a new system for competitions. Two teams with score pools that anyone can contribute to regardless of clan. It is recommended that you read all the details above. But really, I would not blame you for glossing over that text wall.




Either way, feel free to voice your concerns or suggestions about this. None of it is set in stone, of course. And if everyone thinks that it is a bad idea, that is fine too.
Edited by Robert Joe, May 19 2018, 05:35 AM.
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Nedben
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Overall, I like this system but as you mention how the hell are we gonna handle voting for anything that needs judging. Can we avoid judgement call submissions or is whose-art-is-voted-on gonna be a definite involved party?

Still not sure why it's the character badge specifically getting replaced: why not just add 2 badges for Team Isaac and Team Felix and a season number where the count number normally goes?

What are the current systems of voting proposed in a submissions-based competition? Are all submissions lumped into a box and people vote for one side or the other with the issue most people too inactive to contribute won't vote? Does winning a comp get you the point bonus and we have to worry about election vote-splitting between 2 good Team Felix submissions causing a Team Isaac submission to beat the lead?

My current idea is that people vote for individual submissions but each person enters with a team that their submission's votes go to. Whoever gets more net votes gets 5 points, and whichever team has the winning submission also gets 5, so if Team Isaac has both the most votes and winner they get 10, while if Team Felix has the most votes split between all their submissions while Team Isaac has the winner both teams get 5. I'm not sure whether it would have to be a third-party thing consisting of either everyone who doesn't join a team, or some group of active people (say, any staff members who can't be on a team directly because they're writing the events) act as stereotypical gameshow judges and give ranks. (Our voters are Team....Prox?) Not sure.

Alternatively, we go for a large pointcount where submissions count for like 3 or 5 or something for your side, a vote is a point for that side (either with a dedicated neutral team for the voters or it simply being anyone who doesn't put an entry in contributes, or....someone fix this out), and winning the competition is another 5-point boost or whatever.

Hmm.
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Catman
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Robert Joe
May 19 2018, 05:26 AM
Also, it is known that there are definitely people here, mainly in Mars but to a lesser extent in Venus, that would be upset at the lack of "Clan pride" in such a competition like this. But, the idea is that you would still essentially be competing as a team in all but name. The only difference would be that other people who are not in one of the big two Clans could also productively compete as well without their contributions effectively being wasted.

But, if that is not enough Clan pride for you, we have brought up the idea of at the end of a "Season" announcing which clan contributed to the winning team the most. So, if it really is that big of a deal to everyone, we can still have the "Mars Clan Forever" or "Venus Rocks" stuff if people want it.
I don't like either of the teams suggested and I don't think this would really make any difference to anything. I believe this isn't competitive enough to justify bothering with it, when people start to stack onto one more than the other, people who don't feel like changing between the two, you have encountered the same problem as before. In fact I feel this is really ironic, to say that splitting a forum into four factions competitively is bad, to then suggest you split the forum into two but without the commitment or pride from before... I don't see why you don't just run things where the entire forum works together collaboratively to earn points, like the Doom Dragon one was iirc.
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NOX
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i think that :
>To have people voting, we could have each vote gives 1 point to a team of choice.
>To make the people more likely to vote for whatever they like best instead of for a team,
we might keep secret (with a mod knowing) for wich team is each submission.
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Robert Joe
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Nedben
 
Overall, I like this system but as you mention how the hell are we gonna handle voting for anything that needs judging. Can we avoid judgement call submissions or is whose-art-is-voted-on gonna be a definite involved party?


It is probably not wise to have any kind of party designed to vote would work. We saw how well that worked out the last time with having Clanless be the voting party. Avoiding voting entirely is similarly a pretty bad idea, since it would just award spamming submissions.

Nedben
 
Still not sure why it's the character badge specifically getting replaced: why not just add 2 badges for Team Isaac and Team Felix and a season number where the count number normally goes?


We could do that. But, the idea was to give some kind of use to the existing character badge system. It really could go either way if people wanted it, though.

Nedben
 
What are the current systems of voting proposed in a submissions-based competition? Are all submissions lumped into a box and people vote for one side or the other with the issue most people too inactive to contribute won't vote? Does winning a comp get you the point bonus and we have to worry about election vote-splitting between 2 good Team Felix submissions causing a Team Isaac submission to beat the lead?


The old system of voting is incredibly complicated and confusing. Using the "Current System" would probably just involve cutting back the huge amount of unnecessary paperwork and other confusing things, and just having a simple system with something akin to "You cannot vote for your own submission". Again, though. This is a half-baked idea with many, many issues. It still needs to be worked out if we are going to go down that path.

Nedben
 
My current idea is that people vote for individual submissions but each person enters with a team that their submission's votes go to. Whoever gets more net votes gets 5 points, and whichever team has the winning submission also gets 5, so if Team Isaac has both the most votes and winner they get 10, while if Team Felix has the most votes split between all their submissions while Team Isaac has the winner both teams get 5. I'm not sure whether it would have to be a third-party thing consisting of either everyone who doesn't join a team, or some group of active people (say, any staff members who can't be on a team directly because they're writing the events) act as stereotypical gameshow judges and give ranks. (Our voters are Team....Prox?) Not sure.


... Maybe? That is certainly not a bad idea. I still personally think that a third party is ill-advised, though. But, maybe I am in the minority there.

Nedben
 
Alternatively, we go for a large pointcount where submissions count for like 3 or 5 or something for your side, a vote is a point for that side (either with a dedicated neutral team for the voters or it simply being anyone who doesn't put an entry in contributes, or....someone fix this out), and winning the competition is another 5-point boost or whatever.


We would definitely have to account for the scale of the point-count here. That is not set in stone. Depending on the final product, events could be spaced five points away or fifty, since we do not know how many points submissions and actions and the like will be worth.

Catman
 
In fact I feel this is really ironic, to say that splitting a forum into four factions competitively is bad, to then suggest you split the forum into two but without the commitment or pride from before...


It would indeed still be a problem. But two teams is still a hell of a lot more manageable than four. Splitting something in two still yields bigger pieces than dividing it by four.

Catman
 
I don't see why you don't just run things where the entire forum works together collaboratively to earn points, like the Doom Dragon one was iirc.


Well, I literally stated that that was a possibility. If people do not want the competitive aspect, I put forward the idea of simply doing something similar to this but with one bar instead of two. Making it collaborative instead.

Personally, I am actually inclined to agree with you about a preference for something cooperative. But, I did not think that that was what everyone wanted.

NOX
 
i think that :
>To have people voting, we could have each vote gives 1 point to a team of choice.
>To make the people more likely to vote for whatever they like best instead of for a team,
we might keep secret (with a mod knowing) for wich team is each submission.


This is simple and straightforward. But, it still is not without its problems. Obviously you probably would not be able to vote for your own submissions. So, it the incentive would be not voting since doing so would effectively give your opponents an advantage, and who would win could devolve into who bothers to show up to vote the least.

Perhaps an easy way to fix that is to only allow people who have not entered in the contest to vote. But, again, that kind of leads back to the problem of having a third party vote.



Edited by Robert Joe, May 19 2018, 12:12 PM.
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Saucy Goblin
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Hey, sounds like a start. If I have anything to suggest I think you can learn from Rolinas system; have a rotation of content that is predictable so that people know what is coming. You know, creative week (art/music/writing etc.), competitive week, creative week (world-building), competitive week or something like that. A nice schedule would help to keep people informed and interested in the season.
I like the idea of two teams, it works well with having less active members, and I also like the idea of not being tied to one of the two. It's a good start to making things worth participating in. While I am one to like clan related stuff, it is kind of clear that clans nowadays aren't a collective team like they used to be. Mars clan will always be forever even if we have nothing to be Mars clan for, so don't worry about our patriotism goals. If anything, a nod to the clan with most contribution (per active member, mind you, none of this 1 million people = most contribution) would be a nice way to keep interest in clan allegiance without causing too much of a rivalry between Mars and Venus (though it will probably happen anyway, but I've never seen the problem with that).
My honest advice, Discord is adequate for posting and conversation but it can't compare to a forum for organised events. Make the forum something the discord can't be and you'll have people interested in using it more.
One final note, keep up solid communication in both discord and the forum, no-one can be interested in the event if they have no idea if/when it is happening.
To be a shining hobgoblin, as in my dreams!
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Nedben
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I could go for either two-teams or one-team like the forum defender, though assuming Forum Defender remains a thing I'd probably vote 2-team first for the variety. (And be clearer about puzzle bosses being puzzle bosses in the first place, my constituent scientists aren't about to spam alts and disrupt the experiment.)

Anybody up for Yet Another Poll except this one's voting for 2-team, 1-team, either's fine, or don't do the season?

Voting brings up the issue of whether or not we have that voting population or a willing third party, but more importantly whether or not the people who contribute want to allow part of it to be up to the fickle and inactive population. Any of the people who normally submit things want to weigh in on whether you like or dislike the voting assessments and how their problems affect that opinion?

Frankly even if things devolved into spam submissions many of them would probably still be better quality than on the dedicated shitposting forum, simply because y'all are artists. I mean just look at the Bad Art threads, a lot of that is better than what I can draw.
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Robert Joe
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Saucy Goblin
 
Hey, sounds like a start. If I have anything to suggest I think you can learn from Rolinas system; have a rotation of content that is predictable so that people know what is coming. You know, creative week (art/music/writing etc.), competitive week, creative week (world-building), competitive week or something like that. A nice schedule would help to keep people informed and interested in the season.


As it stands with the plans as they are, events would be determined by how far along the progress bar is. And thus are not set in stone when it comes to dates.

A schedule could be worked in if peopled want it, though. But, that would probably warrant some separation between timed events and point-triggered events. Which could get really convoluted and confusing fast. If a regular schedule is something that people want, I would personally advocate for having something like a timer which will automatically trigger the next point event in case things stall. But, again, nothing about this system is defined exactly yet.

Saucy Goblin
 
If anything, a nod to the clan with most contribution (per active member, mind you, none of this 1 million people = most contribution) would be a nice way to keep interest in clan allegiance without causing too much of a rivalry between Mars and Venus (though it will probably happen anyway, but I've never seen the problem with that).


This is a good idea if you asked me. We will most likely end up doing something like this.

Saucy Goblin
 

My honest advice, Discord is adequate for posting and conversation but it can't compare to a forum for organised events. Make the forum something the discord can't be and you'll have people interested in using it more.


I was kind of thinking of this too. Anything longer than a line or two is better suited to the forums, but anything fast-fire is better suited to Discord. No matter how much you try, people are going to naturally gravitate towards Discord for the latter.

I have not been too happy with many of the recent events personally for the exact reason that a majority of the stuff was not significant enough to really garner any interest. So, I was planning on suggesting the idea to beef up some of the forum-side parts of an event to make them a bit more in-depth, while simultaneously moving the really fast stuff to Discord so that both are played to their advantage.

Nedben
 
Anybody up for Yet Another Poll except this one's voting for 2-team, 1-team, either's fine, or don't do the season?


Some kind of a poll probably will be set up for the various specifics of this system in a while, once we have had the time to talk everything over.

Nedben
 
Frankly even if things devolved into spam submissions many of them would probably still be better quality than on the dedicated shitposting forum, simply because y'all are artists. I mean just look at the Bad Art threads, a lot of that is better than what I can draw.


On that note, maybe some kind of system that is just designed to call out obvious spam would work? I do agree that it actually will probably not be much of a problem.
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Neshi
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We'd love to hear more voices our dear members! Please let us know your thoughts.
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Miva
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If you want a comment for the sake of a comment: I read the tldr, but nothing else. I'm not currently interested in this, but if enough people are; great good job.
Edited by Miva, May 22 2018, 04:36 PM.
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AllanaM
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While I'm sure the structure-oriented nature of this thread is important for forum regulars, what can new people like me expect? What types of competitions are going to be held? Are these gaming competitions, like private Splatoon matches, online card game tournaments? Or would they take a different form?
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Delfes
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Historically, those competitions have been entirely in-forum. They were fairly varied. Back when they were well defined in the calendar for schedule, they were separated in 4 categories that would rotate:

-world-building (write down a small text on the theme, things like creating a new psynergy, making up a fictive nation that would fit in a Golden Sun inspired universe, making up holidays, etc.)
-art (a subject is given, create a piece of visual art at least loosely related to the given subject)
-writing (same as visual art, a subject is given, but write down a short story at least loosely related to the given subject instead of making art)
-game competition (We've had 1 on 1 poker duels, some weird kind of roleplay based rock-paper-scissor game that most players didn't enjoy, so I doubt that one will come back, and maybe other things I forgot, but they were always things you could take part in using the forum only with no need of outside hardware or software and usually simple enough that people can get in it with just the explanation in the topic where the game is presented)

If you want, you can look in the alliance competition board, there's a subforum called "Alliance competition archives" where the competitions from after the last big overhaul of the competition system are kept. I'm not sure where the older ones are, though, since there were others before that.


Oh, and RJ, I think you misunderstood Nox's 1 point per vote thing. I believe what it meant was to give 1 point to the team the voter chooses as incentive to vote on top of the point given to the person receiving the vote or points for winner or however they will be distributes, so if you combine that with making the entries not say what team they're for would give 1 point to voter and the points to whichever unknown team the entry belongs to if applicable with your point granting system(which admittedly is a different can of worms since most of us know the art/writing styles of others and may be able to guess allegiance even if we try to make them unknown).

As for my own opinion on things, I think I'd rather go for cooperative overarching events with sometimes competitive events between people for those who like the more competitive side of things, so the overall goal would be achieved by working together but there would still be rivalry through single competitions. That way it wouldn't hamper the possible competitions that could be held since both co-op and what I'll refer to as pvp competitions can exist, which seems like the best alternative to have as many options as possible. One thing though, for co-op events, I'd recommend not going the same way as your games with the item buying, because making co-op games give points only to the last hit/best hit gives incentive to be superior and try to do your best to get the better stuff yourself even if it means hampering the others.(I'd use KoP's actions against the ants as an example, where he bought the one shot item just so he could get a kill for himself with multiple times when it could have given the kill points to someone who still had very little power, this is effectively counter productive to co-op events since it gives incentive to try and steal points and make yourself supreme to "win" by having the most points, granted I don't know if it was meant as a co-op or pvp thing, but it felt to me from the description it was everyone vs the ants rather than a kill count contest)
Edited by Delfes, Jun 2 2018, 06:35 PM.
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AllanaM
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If there is a change in how they're being structured, can we expect a change in the content as well?
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