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| 'Monsters' in GS | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 16 2016, 01:02 PM (1,580 Views) | |
| Saucy Goblin | Nov 16 2016, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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So, I have been wondering, as I often do, about what makes a race a monster. And in golden sun, the obvious answers are anything you fight against, or the things that show up after the Mt. Aleph explosion. But then, some don't seem to 'fit in' as well as others. As much as you all probably thought this was going to be a rant about goblins, it isn't. Goblins are pretty much a textbook monster, nothing will change that. For my example, I'm using the gnome enemies. Unless I'm missing something, they are simply smaller humans, albeit with wacky skin colours. They have synergy, dress in pretty cool looking clothing, and yet, they are a monster that appears among things like apes, and spiders. So, My question is, do you agree that gnomes are monsters? What other Monsters in golden sun do you think cross that line? |
To be a shining hobgoblin, as in my dreams!![]() ![]() ![]()
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| Shadowfyst997 | Nov 16 2016, 01:21 PM Post #2 |
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Well, i'm of the belief that some "monsters" are only monsters because opf their aggression, which stems from not knowing any better. A lot of the races, like merpeople, gnomes and goblins/kobolds could probably learn to live with humanity. In fact, that's a path i tried to go down in my CF game. It's my canon that in the first 2 golden sun games, most of them have either literally just been created out of other things, or only recently gained a rudimentary intelligence. As time passes, their brains develop further, and many of them are probably gaining actual intelligence. Maybe they develop tribes/clans, and start trading with nearby towns. Maybe they form non aggression treaties with other societies. This is something i'd love to see. |
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| Saucy Goblin | Nov 16 2016, 01:25 PM Post #3 |
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I think it's a good idea, I like the idea that they are perhaps just confused and are lashing out. But that raises the question, did they just get the clothing when they transformed? You'd have to have more than just a basic intellect to be able to create the robes you find on gnomes, or the armour the goblin races have and so on. |
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| Shadowfyst997 | Nov 16 2016, 01:31 PM Post #4 |
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I would assume that things like goblins and gnomes have always been around, yet very solitary and a lot more caveman like in intelligence. When Alchemy showed up, they got more aggressive, prolific, and their brains began to expand. The armor and weapons show throughout the games never appear to be THAT complex. The Orc captains for instance, i'm not sure actually forged the blades they used. It's possible they raided a town, and stole them. Or maybe they capture human blacksmiths and force them to create? The gnomes strike me as being very unchanged by the appearance of Alchemy, as their ability to use psynergy to me suggests intelligence was already present. |
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| Saucy Goblin | Nov 16 2016, 01:36 PM Post #5 |
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I guess that's a good explanation. If that is the case, then I'm still thinking that gnomes in particular are not monsters, if the intelligence was already there, then that would raise even further questions, like, why is no-one trying to help these things? If a race of intelligent beings was driven mad by alchemy, then you'd think someone would be trying to help them. |
To be a shining hobgoblin, as in my dreams!![]() ![]() ![]()
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| WitchRolina | Nov 16 2016, 01:37 PM Post #6 |
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Eh, not necessarily "anything you fight against". You fight against drakes and humans, neither of which are considered monsters, and some foes, such as Wolfkins, are implied to be beastmen acting as bandits or something. As such, I think it's safe to assume that there are races mixed in with the monsters. It's one of the big reasons I like the appeal of a storyline where some of these "monster lines" come out as races, such as the example I use often of the Fell and Fey, which are the two most obvious that come to mind that can be worked in. Other possible ones include the mer, but they're harder to work in considering most stories take place on land, not underwater where their cities would most likely be located. Basically, monsters are implied to be creatures and animals mutated by a strong psynergetic influence. Tret and Laurel, for example, were just plain old trees until Mt Aleph erupted and showered psynergy stones into their braches. What's more, Dark Dawn straight up confirms that some of these straight up go from being monsters into being races, as though the nature of being a monster was more of a transition point for them. It also confirms this process can go both ways - both beasts and humans became beastmen, it wasn't just a one way street. This implies that creatures such as goblins, sirens, orcs, faeries, mermen and even demons have the potential to become full fledged races - and with the Golden Sun Event occurring, a group of them possibly have. Chalis is a good hint towards this. She doesn't look like a drake or beastman. In fact, she looks a hell of a lot like the Siren line of monsters. This implies that the race I've come to call the Fell may actually very well be an actual race. So why don't I include it in my races for my system? Well... Kind of do? Sort of, just... unofficially. It's one of those things I worry about where I may go too far from GS and cause some people to avoid using it because it's "too different" or something. :/ |
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| Shadowfyst997 | Nov 16 2016, 01:39 PM Post #7 |
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I agree. I'd love to see a golden Sun game really explore monsters in general. Maybe Gnomes were always peaceful, hiding out in caves and forests and stuff,. Goblins/Kobolds/Orcs strike me as aggressive barly intelligent beings who squabble in small tribes in deserts and undergrounds places. Fairies/Pixies and stuff would be in forests. Also, since we're on the subject, can we bring up the Assassin/Slayer Monster line? http://goldensunwiki.net/wiki/Assassin_enemy_line#Assassin Correct me if i'm wrong, but those are legit people. Ninja'd by Rolina who brings up some good points XD Edited by Shadowfyst997, Nov 16 2016, 01:40 PM.
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| Saucy Goblin | Nov 16 2016, 01:47 PM Post #8 |
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Yeah, I love the idea of monster races being more than just monsters, (as you may be able to tell) so when I was thinking about gnomes in general, I thought, "why are the golden sun gnomes even considered monsters?" and that led to this. |
To be a shining hobgoblin, as in my dreams!![]() ![]() ![]()
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| WitchRolina | Nov 16 2016, 01:49 PM Post #9 |
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Actually, goblins shouldn't be seen as unintelligent. Traditional folklore and faerie tales portray them as cunning beings. I think it was Tolkien who made them the trope they are today, and the more we get away from Tolkien in fantasy the better. I prefer goblins from the Dresden Files, where they're basically the black ops of the realm of faerie. Essentially, a race of intelligent combat badasses. @Gnomes: It's possible that in the time of TBS and TLA, gnomes were monsters. It's the period of transition I mentioned earlier. They'd be part of the Fey race, along with fairies and goblins. |
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| Saucy Goblin | Nov 16 2016, 02:06 PM Post #10 |
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I prefer the way D&D handles the Goblinoid races, though admittedly a bit of a strange way to do it, they atleast represent the different ways goblins have been portrayed. Firstly, goblins are the tolkien chaotic mischevious, albeit stupid race. Hobgoblins, are the Dresden files equivilent, strong, organised, and cunning to a T. Bugbears are the Brutish, tribal depiction of goblins, etc. |
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| WitchRolina | Nov 16 2016, 02:18 PM Post #11 |
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Missing the Unified Aesthetic
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As a proper race, I figure those are all just three individual goblins. First one is probably the young hickish rogue of a group, the second the strategic spellcaster, the third is the tank. All three are goblins, just like the same archetypes with humans in those roles are all still just humans, just with different body builds, skills, and levels of education. |
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| Saucy Goblin | Nov 16 2016, 02:23 PM Post #12 |
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Sadly, most games or systems don't flesh out a single race enough for that, so you get sub-races or just different races under the same pretense. It's just how these things work. In honesty the three races I used could all be made into one race, and D&D in particular has touched on this in that Hobgoblins are the original goblinoid, and goblins and bugbears are races they created through tactical breeding and the like.
Edited by Saucy Goblin, Nov 16 2016, 02:23 PM.
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| Delfes | Nov 16 2016, 02:47 PM Post #13 |
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I don't really know much about Tolkien's portrayal of goblins because they haven't really come up in The Lord of the Rings, but I know the orc trope is derived from Tolkien badly. They are far from barbaric monsters like most people think of them. They are much closer to what you guys did with Kaen than you'd think. Anyway, as for the topic itself, I think monsters are really just used as "anything that attacks you" in Golden Sun. Bandits, animals, actual monsters, intelligent races... We've seen all of them. Some might just be highly territorial and attack you because, well, some heavily armed group is walking dangerously close to their home and is obviously looking for something with all that walking around and trying to get through every trap in sight. Heck I'd argue any time you get a surprise attack you're actually getting the jump on something, making *you* the attacker when they might not have bothered you otherwise. And things like pixies are a wild card because many of them start off with sleep spells or the like, which is arguably a prank more than an attack(which actually makes sense considering the folklore around fairies). To them, you're the one trying to kill them when they were just playing. |
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| WitchRolina | Nov 17 2016, 01:39 PM Post #14 |
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Missing the Unified Aesthetic
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Eh, I'm just tired of the Tolkien staples. There's a reason I throw all of the major Tolkien races those into a single race in my system. Fantasy is so much more, with so many more creatures and races to be had. Why settle for something that's become vanilla? Let's look back at Grimm, they had some pretty gnarly stuff in there. ...People still say gnarly, right? |
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| xX_GrimCloud_Xx | Nov 17 2016, 02:55 PM Post #15 |
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Sure. Gnarly is nice, but BOMBASTIC IS EVEN BETTER. Anyway, so we've been killing a lot of innocent beasties all this time? I remember Master Nyunpa saying something like that at one point. |
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<-- Courtesy of Safe Haven and Saucy Goblin respectively! :3 <3









2:19 PM Jul 11

